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'The madness must be stopped!'

Aslanbek Akhmedovich Aslakhanov was born on 11 March, 1942, in the village of Novye Atagi in the then Chechen–Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (ASSR). From 1967 he worked in the structures of the Ministry of Interior and in 1990 he was elected deputy for the Gudermes district No. 138 of the Chechen–Ingush ASSR. In 1992 he became a chief of the All-Russian Association of Officials in Law-Enforcement Agencies. In 2000 he was elected deputy to the lower chamber of the Russian parliament, which happened, as observers say, thanks to Moscow’s support.

There is no doubt talks have sense. Any fight needs to be ended: you fight, shake hands and part. And here what we have is not a simple fight, but a military campaign, which was proclaimed an anti-terrorist operation. Thousands of civilians have died and more than 100,000 have been injured.

What is the sense of such negotiations?

We must stop the madness of killing your fellow-citizens and getting a state honour which is normally given for fight against outer enemies. It is madness when you cause an immense anguish for one while raising memorial to the other.

But what is the sense of talks between Viktor Kazantsev and Akhmed Zakayev?

Actually, there haven‘t been any talks yet. Russian President Putin charged his people to start a dialogue and discuss the questions concerning the process of negotiations. The meeting of Kazantsev and Zakayev is only the first step in the process from dialogue to negotiations.

Real talks involve a group of people rather than individuals. You need a team to prepare a protocol. Two individuals are impossible to make it, be that Russian President Vladimir Putin or President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria Aslan Maskhadov. What we need is a team of men of authority on each side.

Who do you mean by men of authority?

As far as Maskhadov’s people are concerned, we must look for those who have not tarnished their reputation in banditism, terrorism, and other criminal activities. Similarly, the Russian negotiation group should not include military officials who are responsible for the tragic events in Chechnya. So there should be people with a high reputation abroad as well as among Maskhadov’s people. These are, for example, former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeni Primakov, the Mayor of Moscow Yuri Luzhkov, the President of Tatarstan Mintimer Shaimiyev, and the President of the Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs Arkadi Volski. There area number of candidates on the other side as well, mostly members of the Parliament of the Republic of Ichkeria but I don’t know them by their names.

I have raised the issue of talks when speaking to the President and he has never delivered a flat denial concerning this issue. As a matter of fact, he knows pretty well that Russia wouldn’t be able to cope with that crushing psychological burden that Chechnya represents. In addition, the Russian budget is too low to provide funds for the maintenance, pay and compensations for a huge military contingent in Chechnya and around it. A number of people in the military see that what has been done in Chechnya is appalling. And it is impossible for the President not to see that as well. I came to the conclusion that he does intend to bring order there.

However, as you remember, in late 2001 President Putin charged military officials to withdraw unnecessary troops from Chechnya, but as soon as in five days the Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov announced not a single soldier would leave the country.

There are many generals who simply do not want to leave their posts. Ivanov is a fresh man and that is why he made such a statement. Several officials have already declared that the army had completed its job. The same has been expressed by former Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev, the chief of the Russian General Staff Anatoli Kvashnin, the commander of the North Caucaus Military District of Russia Genady Troshev as well as Viktor Kazantsev, the presidential envoy in the Southern Federal Region.

The experience of foreign armies proves that an army which stays in a country and is carrying out not its own function but the function of a police, is getting demoralised and starting to loot the country. However, Mr Ivanov does not see this. And if the Defence Ministry insists on keeping the army in Chechnya, it will pay a heavy price and eventually we will face something like a Vietnam syndrome.

I won't comment on this question.

Let‘s imagine that the negotiations go smoothly. When would the war end?

Very soon. You sign an agreement and peaceful life can begin on the very next day. Those who fought for money would be allowed to leave Chechnya and if they did not do so, they would be arrested, prosecuted or killed. All the Chechens who left their country would come back and rebuild their republic. Of course, there would be murders and life-long enemies but we would do our best to achieve peace. Negotiations are the shortest way of bringing peace to Chechnya. And Maskhadov‘s main task is to terminate the war. To drag out the war till the victory… Who needs this?

Internal issues

All in all, Aslan Maskhadov is a properly elected president of the Chechen Republic. Besides, the Chechens simply need a leader. That’s the situation.

Is the Chechen population ready to support Maskhadov’s and other guerrilla groups?

To tell the truth, all our people are fed up with the war. They want just one thing: termination of senseless bombardments and mopping-up operations, removal of check-points and opportunity to make one’s living and provide for a family. The vast majority of ordinary people have in fact been forced to take up arms because their relatives and close friends were killed and their property ransacked.

Being a Chechen, official, general and deputy, I feel the following task: to do my best for these people to start peaceful living. The purpose of peace talks is not to restore Aslan Maskahadov's regime. Nobody is going push him to the presidential post.

An agreement has been signed that those who should pursue innocent people will be brought to justice. Rather than being considered criminals, ordinary people must be given the opportunity of laying down their arms. To my mind, this is the only way out.

What will come if Russian army leaves Chechnya. Do you believe the Chechens themselves will be able to crack down on guerrillas?

Nobody believes the army will leave the country. Moreover, should we try to withdraw the whole army at once, there is a danger that some troops in Chechnya rebel. Make no mistake, war is a terrible profit, not to speak of the terrible number of officers’ promotions in Chechnya. A huge army grouping satisfies many. The bigger it is, the better for the situation. The more it fights, the better as well.

Why?

Because war means demand for ammunition, guns, uniforms, clothes, construction material, food etc. For some members of the Russian army this war is a real gold mine. They control a number of oil wells. I have said many times that oil they possess leaks in three directions: it is transported to Dagestan, west of Chechnya; Ingushetia and Osetia, east of Chechnya; and the Stavropol region, north of the republic. Selling the oil there, these people get huge sums of money! But the Kremlin does nothing to deal with it. I often talk to the President’s administration about this question, but they refuse to solve it claiming this is a business of the Security Council.

So what should be done with the army in Chechnya?

What is crucial, soldiers must stay in the barracks. They announced the war and military activities ended with only uncoordinated guerrilla troops operating in some places. But these troops must be eliminated by special military units. The Russian Ministry of Interior and the Federal Security Service signed agreements with corresponding authorities of the Chechen Republic on cooperation in eliminating guerrillas, terrorism and the slave trade. As I said, this should be done by special military units.

Let’s turn back to the question of peace talks. Is it possible that after the negotiations you, a Chechen representative in the Russian Parliament, Bislan Gantamirov, former Mayor of the capital Grozny and chief federal inspector for the Southern Federal District and current minister in the pro-Moscow Chechen government, and Akhmad Kadyrov, the chief of the pro-Moscow Chechen administration, find common ground?

This is the tragedy. The Chechens have been outlawed not only in their country, but also in the whole Russian Federation. They are not accepted to work, they are oppressed with huge numbers of facing arrests, and drugs and ammunition are put stealthily in their houses. Their tragedy is now so great that they don’t have even the right to come to terms between each other. Neither me, nor Kadyrov, nor Khasbulatov, can do so.

Russia claims in 2001 as much as 150 million dollars were spent in Chechnya. But where did the money go?

I am pretty sure not a half of the sum did approach Chechen borders. In spring 2001, the resolution was made at the meeting of the Russian Gosstroi in Chechnya that all Chechen organizations should be accepted without a tender, in contrast to Russian building companies. Currently a number of investigation committees are coming to Chechnya and about ten legal actions have been launched in the Ministry of Interior. As for Chechen organizations, they mostly have the character of a subcontractor rather than a contractor. The order is usually given to some state organisation in some Russian region and this organisation fixes the prices. But why the money allocated for reconstruction of Chechnya is not given to its people? Why should Chechens see people from other regions coming to Chechnya to re-establish it?

Personal issues

You often suggest what should be done in Chechnya. As a member of the Parliament, are you able to ensure the fulfilment of your recommendations.

No. I have no instrument to exert physical pressure at my disposal. My instrument is a language. And my task is to ensure that all, starting from the Russian President to those fighting in Chechnya and the world community, are aware of what is going on in Chechnya. Accordingly, I suggest particular measures.

Don’t you feel you are in deadlock facing all the we-will-do-this-or-that announcements of some and we-don’t-agree answers of others?

I have stated that if there are no political changes in Chechnya, I will really resign as a deputy of the Russian Parliament. This is not a political gesture. I tell my colleagues what is going on there in Chechnya and they all agree with me. But there are no positive changes. We need to get rid of those few people causing the terrible harm to our country.

Let’s suppose that peaceful life comes into being in Chechnya and the people will have to choose their leader. Are you ready to assume the responsibility of the position?

No. I wasn’t ready to become a leader in 1991 when I was asked for appointing Djokhar Dudayev (former President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, killed in April 1996) chief of the Security Council. What I wanted in fact was to help a young entrepreneur Ziyad Bazhayev who could stamp out corruption and official’s arrogance towards ordinary people.

It is for sure that Bazhayev was to save Chechnya, but he died in an aircraft accident. For more than four months I did my best for him to understand that he was “the necessity of the republic”. And I told him “you can always rely on my help”. It was a great tragedy for me and many others when he died in March 1999. Answering the same question then, I said in fact I was likely to become the leader. But I added that I was looking for somebody among the young. Only if I cannot find such a leader, somebody who would serve his nation, and only if people from all the districts ask me for that, then I might assume the responsibility.

There have been accusations that if it weren’t for your hesitation in this respect, the tragedy of Chechnya wouldn’t reach such an extent?

I don’t push towards anywhere. To be frank, now anybody is ready to beat Akhmad Kadyrov. But I say: “Leave Kadyrov in peace”. There will be elections and people will have their say. For the time being, prepare for the elections, help refugees and all who need it. Later people will express their mind in the elections.

The interview was made in December 2001.

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 · Interview with Aslanbek Aslakhanov by Radio Svoboda (28-04-02) - in Russian